I agree with you on your prognostication: I think that what the post-postmodern world needs most is hope. I hope* that my hopeful midwife persona can be seen as a nudge, like a brine shrimp bumping up against the Titanic in an attempt to change its course.What do you think? Is it helpful to compare postmodern disillusionment to the funk of a depressed person? If so, what treatments have been developed to help depressed people? Might they be applied at the societal level?
For some reason, your "pride in humility" characterization, however, feels wrong to me. A depressed person has trouble making the effort to see that their life has meaning. They are awfully self-centered, and engage in a cyclical fixation on the fact that they are depressed. They may even be dependent on this state of being, like an addiction. I wouldn't call them proud of their depression, however, unless they are only playing at depression, like teenagers swapping stories about how they almost killed themselves. Real depression (and I think the world is suffering from real disillusionment) is something its sufferers would give anything to stop feeling, including their own lives.
Postmodern Disillusionment
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Just like Dennis in my previous post, I think the West has been suffering from postmodern disillusionment for a few decades now. My buddy Greg speaks here about how he thinks the root problem of postmodernism is how its "near-invincible belief that its greatest achievement after modernity is humility." In other words, under postmodernism, the only rule is that there can be no bold, absolute, totalizing statements. Here is my response to Greg (posted as a comment on his post):
Monday, May 18, 2009
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My characterization is directed more toward those promoting postmodernism rather than those merely living in the malaise. Also, there is a lot more to say about postmodernism than my single observation, including the disillusionment you highlight. As I mentioned in my post, I feel quite at home in the postmodern mix, much because I share in that disillusionment. But when I read or experience those actually engaging in the conscious reaction to modern norms, I find that the choice for postmodernism over against modernism is not rooted in a kind of shoulder-shrugging resignation since what we had didn't work and we've got nothing better. Instead, I find a real sense of satisfaction that at least we're not as close-minded, in-the-box, provincial, coldly rational, etc. as _they_ were.
In all truth, to the extent that those things have changed, I too am happy with them. The point I intended to make, however, was that it is starting to come off a bit like "I'm humbler than you are," which is a bizarre twist that will not produce the kind of social change necessary to get beyond the disillusionment that always accompanies the fall that follows pride.
But I'll say again, I'm no expert. It's just an observation.
There's an interesting conversation taking place on Facebook under the notes section of my profile in the comments of the note corresponding to this post.
Greg, I'm going to copy and paste your reply there.
Lori Calvert Wijntjes at 10:42am May 19
I think it is helpful, perhaps because I think the differences between postmodern disillusionment and depression may be a matter of degree rather than kind.
Publicly accessible cognitive therapies, reviving contact with nature and humanity--these seem to be something people reach for when they develop a sense that "other" may be the key to breaking self-centered, self-relegated cycles--for which solutions are very limited. Even people working on themselves in private ways are reaching out for books and thus "other."
Solutions, helps can definitely be applied at the societal level, and they are. They are mixed with commercialism (television shows like Home Makeover) and media (new coverage of people helping people, Habitat for Humanity, etc.). ... Read More
It's a long, natural walk. There is definitely hope for the individuals willing to ask the question: "Is there hope?"
Another thought -
Severe depression, in a twisted way, is a form of detaching--like a spiritual discipline, like neti-neti (not this, not that). While spirituality, by nature, tends not to be a matter of pride, perhaps it is a matter of confidence and faith to take any conscious path, even if it seems negative, based on negation. People often confuse confidence with security in the act when really it is more a matter of peace with the outcome.
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Andrew Anthony Didente-Ormsby at 11:36am May 19
It's a commonly held misconception that being depressed means being "down." In essence, that is true; however, it's not that you are being forced down by some weight, but that there is an invisible ceiling on how "high" you can get. A depressed--truly depressed, that is--person can fluctuate within that glass ceiling, but it is considerably smaller... Read More than the average person, which is what characterizes it as depression rather than just sadness.
So, rather than sadness, depression is the inability to experience happiness. Although not always sad, the happy moments are very, very fleeting. It's this inability to experience happiness that creates hopelessness, not the other way around. So, even the happiest moments in a depressed person's life don't affect them as they should. They hit the ceiling, but return soon to where they were. It's a monotone existence punctuated with bouts of near-crippling sadness--or hopelessness if you will--because a person cannot exist without being happy.
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Becky Ball VanShoubrouek at 11:40am May 19
Glasser (reality therapy) actually believes all mental illness which isn't physiologically based (such as brain damage or Alzheimer's), including depression, is a result of conscious choice; we behave in order to get our basic needs met. Depression may meet a need, even if it's not the most productive choice. I don't necessarily agree with him ... Read Morethough that our choices are always totally in our control.
But I think your idea of "treating" society for depression is an interesting thought. Cognitive restructuring has had great success with depression -- replacing maladaptive thoughts with more functional thinking; the idea of "as a man thinketh, so he is" seems to be pretty valid.
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Andrew Anthony Didente-Ormsby at 11:41am May 19
And, yes, a person can go through cognitive/behavioral therapy and it is helpful in some cases, but often times it just isn't enough. Cognitive and behavioral therapies are, at their root, teaching someone to react positively to outside stimulus. In some instances, though, a person's glass ceiling is so low that it is nearly impossible to do that. ... Read MoreThis is where anti-depressants come in. They widen the gap to allow the person to begin pushing that ceiling up physically by changing their thought processes and reactions to outside stimuli. At its heart, Depression is a chemical imbalance in the brain. The receptors just don't work, which is the chemical cause for the glass ceiling.
So, no, I don't believe depression could be compared to postmodern disillusionment in any other way than analogical. Society's disillusionment emerges from outside stimuli and not from their inability to react in a positive way to that stimuli. They are fundamentally different.
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Lori Calvert Wijntjes at 12:44pm May 19
Very thought provoking.
When I read the original post, my first thought was, "Well, maybe in cases of mild depression." I replied based on this assumption which I didn... Read More’t clarify. After reading Andrew’s post, I wanted to do that because he’s right: severe forms of depression can be very physical in nature, needing to be addressed by medications. Cognition may not be the problem for some individuals.
That said, postmodern disillusionment is related to the way a person *thinks* which is definitely related to the way a person feels in many cases. I think a case can be made, especially by cognitive therapists, that thinking patterns can be related, even causative in nature, to the way a person feels.
If disillusionment could be seen as related to mild depression or depressive moods, then there could be a way to discuss options that an individual has to manage the process of questioning, seeking, feeling, understanding... Read More—even interpreting stimuli. There is such a thing as pessimism that is thought before it is believed and felt. There is also such a thing as faith, a type of optimism, that is thought before it is believed or felt.
The intellect is a tool. Postmodern thinking can be a tool, or it can be a static, unconscious belief system that blindly rules someone’s moods because it predetermines how a person will interpret stimuli.
Depression isn't "cured" by a single treatment, not as I've seen or experienced it. I don’t think there is a right way or wrong way for a person to approach their own issues—physical issues, mental issues, or spiritual issues. They are not always unrelated, sometimes very integrated.
I don't believe there's a societal shot in the arm because we are so different, but I think it is imperative for those whose depression is related to cognition to keep looking for answers.
People who share the answers they’ve found are contributing to the process—either directly or indirectly—by both modeling thought patterns and sharing possibilities that may hold a key to helping someone else find comfort or hope. ... Read More
We have to try.
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Bryan Tarpley at 1:37pm May 19
Andrew's point about the glass ceiling is helpful for extending this analogy because where he's talking about happiness, I think society has a glass ceiling for accepting anything claiming to be a transcendent, universal truth. Postmodernism ripped away our Cartesian foundations, our Judeo/Christian assumptions, our nationalistic loyalties. These... Read More assumptions are still clung to desperately by people, but if they are unable to entertain the possibility that they may be wrong, they become fundamentalists.
Would these mantras work as cognitive therapy?
* Though everything is provisional, provisionality does not preclude belief or action.
* Because everything is provisional, intolerance will not be tolerated!... Read More
* Tolerance does not preclude dialogue. Silence + Tolerance = stagnation.
* Because everything is provisional, there is never justification for violence, whether physical or within dialogue.
To further extend the analogy, in what ways might antidepressants be analogous to art?
I have more or less treated bold statements as untenable. I had a hell of a time writing my thesis proposal because of it as well, I'll tell you. Even on my blog I've mixed my rants with light trivia just so, you know, ha-ha, I'm not that invested in the things I'm saying.
Good reeading this post
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